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Post by J Esaj PRA on Nov 10, 2009 13:22:50 GMT
You did say '.. for a cause...', which is difficult to interpret the way you intended it.
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Post by robotsmfc on Nov 10, 2009 15:21:08 GMT
Likewise, when you said "the freedom to enjoy your life as you currently do" it's not a huge jump for me to assume you're talking about what I thought you were talking about.
Does anyone get the feeling that if we were actually talking face to face then there wouldn't be half as much confusion?
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Post by J Esaj PRA on Nov 10, 2009 16:45:17 GMT
Nope. We'd just have consumed more booze and be far less bothered!
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Post by peekay on Nov 10, 2009 18:05:45 GMT
Mmmmmmmm, booze.
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Post by bh on Nov 11, 2009 0:00:52 GMT
I wear a Poppy every year, not to glorify war, but to help the poor boys and girls who have suffered from it's atrocities.
I'm lucky, none of my family were taken after fighting in both the world wars. I had an uncle though who had a big whole in him from a Nazi bullet on D Day. Hopefully people like me who donate to the Poppy appeal saved his life. God bless you Bernard. RIP
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Post by robotsmfc on Nov 11, 2009 13:12:43 GMT
Exactly what people should wear poppies for in my opinion.
Those people didn't ask to be put there and they ought to be shown a little bit of respect and given all the medical help they need.
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Post by ambersalamander on Nov 11, 2009 13:22:47 GMT
Hurrah for that
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Post by Col ISIHAC. on Nov 12, 2009 8:38:34 GMT
I wear a Poppy every year, not to glorify war, but to help the poor boys and girls who have suffered from it's atrocities. I'm lucky, none of my family were taken after fighting in both the world wars. I had an uncle though who had a big whole in him from a Nazi bullet on D Day. Hopefully people like me who donate to the Poppy appeal saved his life. God bless you Bernard. RIP At last, some relevant comment. Students are are all well and good in my opinion, but I do wish they would complete their studies before spouting claptrap! The poppy is symbolic and has been used for generations by the Royal British Legion as a symbol; and means to raise funds for the support of ex service personnel and their families. Once a year they embark upon a campaign to remind us of the sacrifice made by millions of individuals - not just in the two world conflicts, but any number of subsequent campaigns. It worries me that, just because the fighting didn't actually occur in London, for example, anyone can suggest that our freedom was not being jeopardised in either 1914-18 or 1939-45. Why the feck do you think that so many responded to the call to arms??! Reading history books is one thing. Understanding consequence clearly another. I am going to get a little "Old Git" here and to hell with it. In my opinion, my generation was the last to be directly affected by the losses of WW2 - one grandfather fought in India, the other lost his life in Normandy, so you'll forgive me if I spend just a couple of minutes a year remembering them and others (I could add the Falklands vets and friends who returned from that conflict with life changing injuries too; but the Falklands is rather divisive..!) I felt a change this year at the remembrance service in London; the mood has changed and more recent conflicts; particularly the current ones, seem to hold sway. If the event was designed to remind us that war is ultimately futile; then it has failed. As an opportunity to reflect upon the futility and thank those who made the ultimate sacrifice, it remains important. So, to Frankie's question: Yes, I do. And until the poppy is replaced with something else, I will continue to wear one.
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Post by robotsmfc on Nov 12, 2009 12:08:44 GMT
Students are are all well and good in my opinion, but I do wish they would complete their studies before spouting claptrap! At that point it stops being claptrap and starts being paid for as legitimate research, even if it's exactly the same rubbish It worries me that, just because the fighting didn't actually occur in London, for example, anyone can suggest that our freedom was not being jeopardised in either 1914-18... It certainly wasn't in 1914-18! ...or 1939-45. Why the feck do you think that so many responded to the call to arms??! One of the tragedies of 1914-18 was that so many people were so eager to respond to the call to arms. I'll admit that I was a bit quick to dismiss World War II, partly out of a big-headed desire to be controversial, which definitely isn't in the spirit of remembrance. I apologise for that. On the other hand, there is a strong case to say that after France was liberated, the allies only pushed on towards Berlin to make sure that the Red Army didn't end up in Cologne, Copenhagen, Rome, etc. It's not worth going into that now though because it's all of no consequence to the actual act of remembrance, which despite seemingly pissing a couple of people off going through my interpretation of the history, I did say in my posts. Reading history books is one thing. Understanding consequence clearly another. I don't think that's a fair comment, but again it's not worth arguing over now. Where's Daz with the tea? Edit: I want the Hampton & Richmond mug!
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Post by ambersalamander on Nov 12, 2009 12:39:33 GMT
Mine's chipped. Here, have the Heybridge Swifts one.
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Post by frankiegth on Nov 12, 2009 19:21:27 GMT
Did anyone see Andrew Marrs making of modern Britain last night.
When he told the story of the officer who used to be a maths teacher before the war pointing out to his commanders that; given the position of the German machine gun posts if he were to lead his men "over the top" it would be wholesale slaughter. He was told "you will lead your men forward". Which he duly did, and every last one of them were killed in a matter of minutes having achieved nothing.
The British high command should have faced war crimes trials for what went off in the 1914-18 war.
On a lighter note, in the same programme, he read a poem from "The Wipers Times". A "news paper" printed for the men in the trenches at Ypres. I cant remember how it went but the last two lines went along the lines of.
Although we've been blown from post to pillar, what we want to know Will Notts county beat the Aston Villa?
A question that could only be asked with any amount of sincerity in 1916. ;D
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Post by loy PRA on Nov 12, 2009 19:33:42 GMT
Students are are all well and good in my opinion, but I do wish they would complete their studies before spouting claptrap! At that point it stops being claptrap and starts being paid for as legitimate research, even if it's exactly the same rubbish Regardless of whether it's matriculation, paid research, unpaid research, amateur interest etc In my opinion you used the premise of your perceived 'higher understanding' to undermime peoples' strongly held beliefs and principles which in my opinion only endeavours to depict you as a very immature person. That's all I have to say in response. To detract from the more undesirable parts this debate has been been dragged to, I had forgotten that we have at least one ex serviceman here in Coops, I would like to hear his opinion on the subject. Sarah, I abhor war as much as you do but your comment was left open to much interpretation, I commend you for campaigning for amnesty international as I am a member myself and I am resigned to the fact that human conflict will play a huge role in the world we live and the next few generations future.
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Post by coops on Nov 13, 2009 8:40:26 GMT
I had forgotten that we have at least one ex serviceman here in Coops, I would like to hear his opinion on the subject. I largely keep out of these type of debates, obviously as an ex-Army man and having fought in Gulf War I and two tours of The Balkans I have my own opinions on the wearing of the poppy. Many ex-squaddies, and those who I know that are still serving, get very irate when they see or hear anything that they regard as a slight on the Armed Forces, I have mellowed rather after 12 years in Civvie Street and can now see both sides of the argument. One thing I don't like is the attempt by some quarters (and I'm specifically going to mention The Sun newspaper here) to politicise Remembrance Day. Their quite shameful printing of that letter Gordon Brown wrote to one of the parents and then the lambasting of him for not bowing his head at The Cenotaph was just pisspoor, I note that the same paper did not shame Cameron and several high ranking members of the Forces for not bowing during the two minutes silence on Wednesday. Remembrance Day is just that - a day for remembering, it should not be used to further any cause beyond that of raising money for The British Legion. Otherwise, basically, do what you want, we fought for your right to do so.
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Post by Sultan of Cannock- SRFC on Nov 15, 2009 8:52:38 GMT
At last, some relevant comment. Students are are all well and good in my opinion, but I do wish they would complete their studies before spouting claptrap! The poppy is symbolic and has been used for generations by the Royal British Legion as a symbol; and means to raise funds for the support of ex service personnel and their families. Once a year they embark upon a campaign to remind us of the sacrifice made by millions of individuals - not just in the two world conflicts, but any number of subsequent campaigns. It worries me that, just because the fighting didn't actually occur in London, for example, anyone can suggest that our freedom was not being jeopardised in either 1914-18 or 1939-45. Why the feck do you think that so many responded to the call to arms??! Reading history books is one thing. Understanding consequence clearly another. I am going to get a little "Old Git" here and to hell with it. In my opinion, my generation was the last to be directly affected by the losses of WW2 - one grandfather fought in India, the other lost his life in Normandy, so you'll forgive me if I spend just a couple of minutes a year remembering them and others (I could add the Falklands vets and friends who returned from that conflict with life changing injuries too; but the Falklands is rather divisive..!) I felt a change this year at the remembrance service in London; the mood has changed and more recent conflicts; particularly the current ones, seem to hold sway. If the event was designed to remind us that war is ultimately futile; then it has failed. As an opportunity to reflect upon the futility and thank those who made the ultimate sacrifice, it remains important. So, to Frankie's question: Yes, I do. And until the poppy is replaced with something else, I will continue to wear one. As MeatLoaf once said You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth (though you weren't kissing me at the time and rest assured you never will be ) I'd just like to develop a couple of points about the threats to our freedom. Maybe in 1914, we could and should have stayed out (in the event we nearly did). Quite apart from ratting on our allies however, the consequences were unknown. The French and Germans may have bled each other white, leaving us top dog, but on the other hand a 1940 style French collapse, wich at the time looked very much on the cards, could have left us looking at a much strenghthened militaristic, expansionsist Germany all around the world, with possibly the French Empire turned against us, too. Remember how hard the Vichy French fought against the Allies, leaving Churchill to lament " If only they had fought this hard against Hitler" As for 1939-45, i find robot's faith in an obviously mad, one-bollocked nazi dictator quite touching. Similar to the faith Stalin had in Hitler not attacking him, right up to the day the Panzers crashed across the River Bug into Soviet occupied Poland. Students of any kind have to be careful when looking at research or teaching. You also have to look at who the source is and what axe they may have to grind. For example, i was doing "O" -level Geography at the time of the Common Market referendum in 1975. When our Pro-Marketeer teacher covered this, he gave us notes on " Advantages of staying in" and "Disadvantages of coming out" rather than trying to give us an impartial view. Likewise when my son was doing his GCSE's the coverage they were given of the Miner's Strike was totally pro-Scargill. Just remember that qualifications do not always equal impartiality. A good student makes the effort to seek all out sources of information and learn from them, not just swallow the stuff from people we know and like as if it's gospel truth.
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Post by Loy PRA on Nov 16, 2009 0:11:30 GMT
Perhaps you shall get a thread dedicated to you for that incredibly salient post, Mr Cannock.
I am a keen advocate of experience over matriculation. Or perhaps, finding the right mix between the two.
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