Alty in trouble!

[frankiegth]

Rules are rules are rules.

Like, only four English clubs in the champions league. Oh unless the rules are so unfair we'll bend them a bit so they're not so unjust on a team (Liverpool/Everton) take your pick. Common sense prevailed.

Leeds played Stutgart in the champions league some years ago in the knock-out rounds and one of them contravened the foreign players rule thus breaking the rules. This should have resulted in the teams expulsion from the competition. What happened UEFA ordered a replay. Rules yet again rigidly applied (not).

As for your (Tamworth fans) bleating we had 3 points deducted that's as far as it went. At the end of the day it meant nowt. Thus you could argue you were not punished at all. To be fair IF it was 'cos the documentation WAS lost in the post then JUSTICE was done.

Although, as you say ignorance is no defence, proof of posting is no guarantee of delivery

Us at Hucknall LOST the NPL DIV ONE TITLE on goals scored several years ago partly because we had three points deducted for playing an ineligible player, so don't bang on about "we had three points took of us" even though cost ya nowt at the seasons conclusion.

A fairer punishment would have been to have docked Alty 3 points (which would have still left them with some work to do and fined them perhaps £1,000 per point gained.

No nothing will convince any different that you Tamworth and FGR fans want the rules applied so rigidly and, unfairly on this occasion only in order to save your under achieving teams skin. If you were being honest with yourselves and everyone else, you'd have the integrity to admit that.

But I think not.

[coops]

So there are examples of rules being bent or ignored, that's okay then. Tell you what, forget rules, we won't bother with them and everyone can do what they want.

The Conference rules state that a team will be docked ALL the points it gained in games involving an ineligible player, if this is unfair then the Conference needs to rewrite the rulebook, not bend the rules because it seems a bit harsh in this case.

Thanks for doubting my integrity by the way, I won't hold it against you! If you have ever read any of my views on the Conference you would know that I wouldn't be overly upset if we did get relegated. Have a peek at the TFC forum, you won't see many people gloating, most of us would like to stay up on merit rather than points deductions and bankruptcies, but I will stick to my guns on this one, Alty broke the rules and they have got the punishment that is laid down in the book.

[Col ISIHAC.]

Why is it Tammuff fans hate the Confernce so much??

OK - it ain't exactly the land of milk & honey, it's run bu eejits, there's loads of travelling to teams that think they are just so much better than you becasue they once played "Proper" football, most of the teams are now full time and there's a chasm opening between the haves & have nots of the Conference as there is in the overblown higly paids ranks above - but it's as high-profile a league as...


Ah.

Hang on.

I think I understand now.


But.

Just like a teenager who is determined to ignore the advice of his elders and go experience life - I still wanna try it for size...

[ojiveojive]

Well my solution is a complete load of horse manure but why not throw out those that break the rules along with those that aren't good enough to stay up and make up the numbers with more sides from the pyramid, after all if we don't want to play in the Conference, why are we bothering in the regional leagues?

I have every sympathy for Alty's fans (I even signed the petition) but it is definitely up to their football secretary to MAKE SURE that any player signed by the club has any necessary clearances.

When I was tour managing it was my job to make sure that everyone had the right paperwork with regard to visas and work permits, some needed waivers because they had previous convictions (usually for possession of drugs) and without being granted a waiver they would not be allowed into the country we were visiting. This is bread and butter administration and whoever cocked it up should apologise to the fans and proffer their resignation straight away.

One afterthought: I know he didn't play for the first team but if Accy registered this player with the Conference (and why wouldn't they?), surely his registration would have been invalid.

[frankiegth]

Coops, I don't know you from Adam and was not doubting your integrity full stop.

Perhaps a better way of putting it would have been to say you're allowing what's at stake for your team to cloud your vision of what should be right and fair.

This incident should act as a watershed. DJ Hinckley has put forward the most sensible suggestion. Each player should be registered on a central computer and HE should be responsible for the update of the info held on him. Failure to do so would result in action against the player NOT the club.

There should be a rule change.

Hopefully the FA will overturn the decision made yesterday and the rule book can be changed.

[pies]

IMO Alty should of been docked points. But Football is a team game, why should the influence of one player (who was a sub more often than not) mean that gained 18 points? This smacks and stinks of self-interest from the Conference chairmen, who decided Alty's fate.
Remember Boston? Guilty of cheating, and only got a 4 point deduction carried onto the next season! Also why wait untill it was mathmatically impossible for Alty to try and honestly retain their Conference status before making the judgment. I repeat it smacks of self-interest of the highest order!

[J Esaj PRA]

Frankie - you should stop reading ConfGuide youth - it's populates with morons. ;D

Right where to start this quote fest...

frankiegth said:

Although, as you say ignorance is no defence, proof of posting is no guarantee of delivery

Exactly right. TFC had no proof of posting, there was no proof of delivery from either party and the Conference couldn't prove if they acted on the given information correctly or explain why their electronic system failed. Bottom line, admin error at TFC; points deducted. Club's record marked forever with a penalty for 'cheating'. Reluctantly, we took it on the chin, because those were the rules we signed up to at the start of the season.

Your whole argument for Alty is "they didn't mean it, honest", yet you seem reluctant to apply the same logic to the cases of Burton, Tamworth, Leigh RMI, etc. What's so special about Alty that they should be treated differently?

frankiegth said:

...so don't bang on about "we had three points took of us" even though cost ya nowt at the seasons conclusion.

Pathetic. It was just an example of the Conference applying their rules to the letter, just as they are doing with Alty. The Conference were right to do it to us. The only reason it didn't cost us at the end of the season was because we were just about good enough to survive without those three points. At the time, it left us in just as much shite as Alty are in now, so with all due respect ram that one up yer ring piece.

frankiegth said:

A fairer punishment would have been to have docked Alty 3 points (which would have still left them with some work to do and fined them perhaps £1,000 per point gained.

OK, say this was adopted for next season. TFC (now in Nationwide North) are in a two horse race with Hucknall for the title with 10 games to go. TFC bring in a ringer. We're subtle - nobody notices. That player goes on to score the winning goal in all 10 remaining games and Tamworth win the title by 6 points. A demoralised Hucknall trail in second place and are beaten in the play-offs by the fifth placed club. Tamworth get found out. They loose just 3 points and £30k - a tickle with a feather by Conference standards. Are you still happy with your 'fair punishment'? Face it Frankie, it'd be a license to cheat.

A better way to do it (IMO) would be to keep things as they are, or even make the punishment more severe. Just add in a clause that 'intent to cheat' must be proven. That would allow honest admin errors to be handled by less severe fines with no points being lost. It'd prevent clubs from cheating, but wouldn't cause the problems we now see with Alty. That could easily be voted in for next season.

DJs idea is good too (I think the Conf have tried and failed to introduce such a system), but someone would have to pay for it. It would be very difficult to set up, expensive and difficult to administer. I'm sure it'll happen eventually.


Ojiveojive - Thanks for at least acknowledging that Coops, Ruth and I are not totally insane! I'd go with your solution, except that it would be very harsh to directly relegate Alty for an admin error - what if they'd gone on to finish in the top 5? I have absolutely no problem with relegation if TFC end the season as one of the worst two sides in the Conference.

frankiegth said:

No nothing will convince any different that you Tamworth and FGR fans want the rules applied so rigidly and, unfairly on this occasion only in order to save your under achieving teams skin. If you were being honest with yourselves and everyone else, you'd have the integrity to admit that.

But I think not.

See above comment, read it and weep. Like Coops, I have no love for the Conference at all. I will acknowledge that the Northern division would be even worse though. All I want to see is rules being applied as written, evenly and equally to all teams that compete under them. I'd also like to see better rules. Oh and world peace!

No offence Frankie, but if you're gonna bad mouth my team, you do so at your own peril.

namesareforidiots said:

This smacks and stinks of self-interest from the Conference chairmen, who decided Alty's fate.

That could very well be true. They certainly had a chance to decide something different. I suspect they'll end up getting rid of two other teams though, which will allow Alty to survive with the points deduction. I can't see the FA changing things - they will look at the Conference rules and see they have been applied.

[coops]

ojiveojive said:

Well my solution is a complete load of horse manure but why not throw out those that break the rules along with those that aren't good enough to stay up and make up the numbers with more sides from the pyramid, after all if we don't want to play in the Conference, why are we bothering in the regional leagues?

Don't take my hatred of the Conference as the manifesto for Tamworth FC! I'm sure the club want to be in the Conference as do 99.9% of the fans I would have thought!

One afterthought: I know he didn't play for the first team but if Accy registered this player with the Conference (and why wouldn't they?), surely his registration would have been invalid.

I believe he was only ever on trial, Accy decided not to sign him on a contract therefore had no need to register him as a Conference player.

[coops]

frankiegth said:

Coops, I don't know you from Adam and was not doubting your integrity full stop.

You said, in a reply to one of my posts:

"If you were being honest with yourselves and everyone else, you'd have the integrity to admit that."

Loks like you are doubting my integrity to me! Never mind, I'm a peacable chap and I'll let it ride!

Perhaps a better way of putting it would have been to say you're allowing what's at stake for your team to cloud your vision of what should be right and fair.

Nope, totally wrong. You can't go changing and bending rules after the event just because you've suddenly realised that one of your rules is actually bollocks, we all signed up to them and are expected to abide by them until the end of the season, then they can be rewritten so that this situation doesn't happen again.

[frankiegth]

J esaj.

The 3 points you had deducted did not leave your team in the same position as Alty at all. It didn't relegate them did it.

I don't know what happened at Burton at all (no comment). Leigh fell foul of the same ruling in the trophy last season. Lots of teams have been expelled for playing ineligible players in various cups over the seasons. That does not have as big of an impact as relegating a club in the long run.

If we are entering the world of hypothetical as you have try this one.

Hucknall sign a player but fail to get international clearance '
cos we fail to realise he'd played in chad when taking a "year out" from uni.

He then plays for half a dozen other clubs in three or four seasons ending at Tamworth who play him for an entire season. Only then is it discovered he has no IC. ALL six clubs have broken the rules but who would get the sh*tty end of the stick? Just Tamworth I think, that would hardly be fair being as SIX teams had cheated, would it?

I didn't "bad mouth" your team I just said they were under achievers in the context of the league position. They do stand to directly benefit from the ruling as it stands.

I carry no torch for Alty, it doesn't matter to me whether they or you visit Watnall road next season (if it did happen to be your lot I would hope you would enjoy a pint with me) It's just that RELEGATION for an dubious admin error does seem Draconian.

DJ Hinckley's solution I agree would be the way forward but, I don't think its one that will be taken up.

[roofless]

frankiegth said:

No nothing will convince any different that you Tamworth and FGR fans want the rules applied so rigidly and, unfairly on this occasion only in order to save your under achieving teams skin. If you were being honest with yourselves and everyone else, you'd have the integrity to admit that.

But I think not.

I think that's really unfair, the actual fact of the matter is I couldn't care less if it was Alty or Hereford having the points deducted, the fact is they broke rules, and for that particular rule being broken, the punishment is points deducted from every game played, I, for a start, don't think it will affect us, I don't think we are going to be the second from bottom team. I don't think it's a fair rule, but if they're going to deduct points from every other team for breaking that rule then why should they let Alty off just because it would relegate them. We've learnt from our mistakes, you can bet anything we are more careful with players paper work now!

I can assure you I am not letting anything other than the fact that we and other teams have been punished cloud my vision, and I have no worries over y own integrity thank you very much, I actually have a proble with people who do lie, which is why I don't personally bother.

I'm not that down on the conference myself, I'd much rather stay there, but not because of this, I want to still be in because we put up a fight against Accy and batter Crawley on the last day of the season. And I don't want teams to be "let off" just because the punishment would actually affect them... what's the point in having the rules if you're only going to deduct points from the teams that won't be affected?!?!

[J Esaj PRA]

OK, say this happened to Accy. An 18 point deduction wouldn't relegate them. Would it suddenly become fair?

The three points deducted from us could easily have seen us relegated. At the time we were on a high, having just beaten Carlisle at home and won 3-0 at Barnet. We got the news our appeal had failed and hardly saw another point for months. If we hadn't turned things around in the final month or so, we would have been relegated.

You see it's not about the number of points deducted; it's about following the rules as written and treating clubs equally. Let's face it, if Alty hadn't picked up any points in those games they wouldn't be deducted any points. For all we know, they might not have got any points if this player hadn't played. Even as things stand right now, they still might not get relegated.

Your hypothetical situation wouldn't happen. As part of the requirements of signing players in the Conference you need to check the international status of each player. There's even a part on the form dealing with it. So, at TFC it would be spotted. Unless the player lied of course - hard to defend against that. (That happened to our youth team - player gave a false age/documents, it got found out and the youth team had to pay a penalty. I think the club took legal action against the player to recover costs. It's all harsh, but all in the rules.)

It's just that RELEGATION for an dubious admin error does seem Draconian.

I would agree, except that Alty haven't been punished with relegation, just a points deduction. I might argue the 'dubious' too.

I still think that putting 'intent' back into most rules and Laws in football would get the game back to something much better than we currently have.



BTW, I've already done Watnall Road - couple of years ago, pre-season. I remember getting drink in Nottingham before and after the game and little else. Think it was 0-0! Modern-ish place, three sides empty. I assume you've had to make substantial improvements.

[coops]

frankiegth said:

If we are entering the world of hypothetical as you have try this one.

Hucknall sign a player but fail to get international clearance '
cos we fail to realise he'd played in chad when taking a "year out" from uni.

He then plays for half a dozen other clubs in three or four seasons ending at Tamworth who play him for an entire season. Only then is it discovered he has no IC. ALL six clubs have broken the rules but who would get the sh*tty end of the stick? Just Tamworth I think, that would hardly be fair being as SIX teams had cheated, would it?

Your hypothetical case doesn't stand up, if the player had played first team matches for all six clubs then under Conference rules all six would have the points gained when he played deducted. In the real case Accrington didn't play him in a Conference match.

[DJhinckley]

Jase said:

but someone would have to pay for it. It would be very difficult to set up, expensive and difficult to administer. I'm sure it'll happen eventually.

a central system would be hard to sort but the second part of the idea wouldn't. Basically a player has a small passport sized booklet, lets call it a 'passport'. Every time he registers with a new club, whatever level, whatever league, that club places a stamp of some sort in this booklet. When he leaves this club another stamp is placed in the passport to indicate an end to his registration with that club. The carrying and maintainance of this booklet is the responsibility of the player. These details can be held on a central system but the passport itself should be enough for the system to work. It would then be simple enough for any club to examine to see if the player is still registered with any previous club, therby eradicating the need for international clearance at all! All players then have a 'passport to play' moving between teams just as passports are used for moving between countries.

[futch4everscfc]

J said:

frankiegth said:

Ahhhh!!! all becomes clear.

Salisbury fans: Take note of the garbage league you've 'won' promotion to. First thing you'll need is a secretary who loves endless paperwork, closely followed by a good team of no win, no fee lawyers! ;D

EI EI EI O....UP TO CONFERENCE SOUTH WE GO!!! ;D ;D ;D