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Post by loy PRA on Oct 31, 2009 16:14:26 GMT
While this is all very accurate for you (and from my experience the attitudes of people in the North-East in general) it doesn't mean to say that Sultan was wrong in what he said. A lot of working class people do turn to the BNP out of frustration with mainstream politics; I've seen it in action in Solihull and what tends to happen is that the BNP sneak a seat out of nowhere because Labour are completely disorganised at a grassroots level and their councillors are often very complacent. The next year their vote collapses because people feel that they've proven their point, and find that they have a throughly incompetent BNP councillor who they may not have really agreed with in the first place. I never said he was wrong, I said I strongly disagreed with his comment. You may also like to note that Sultan provides Peter Mandelson as an example of an incompetent Labour Lord and formerly a Member of Parliament as just cause for working class people to vote British National Party. Mandelson's constituency is Hartlepool which is in the North East if I recall correctly, the British National Party have never contested the seat. The idea that people would vote BNP purely because they are disaffected by a Labour leadership is flawed given the sheer amount of options available to the voter (RESPECT coalition being a moot point) however given Sultan is an avowed Conservative I can understand that sort of rhetoric being actively promoted by the Conservative Party.
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Post by robotsmfc on Oct 31, 2009 16:42:16 GMT
A lot of people do turn to other parties, you are correct. A lot of disaffected Labour voters have gone to parties that appear to take them seriously and want to work hard for them, such as the Greens in quite a few places. In some areas there are people who see voting BNP as sticking two fingers up to the main parties though, and they vote BNP above all options because voting Green, UKIP, SWP, RESPECT, etc. doesn't piss off the mainstream politicians half as much as voting BNP does.
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Post by Sultan of Cannock- SRFC on Nov 1, 2009 9:16:40 GMT
I never said he was wrong, I said I strongly disagreed with his comment. You may also like to note that Sultan provides Peter Mandelson as an example of an incompetent Labour Lord and formerly a Member of Parliament as just cause for working class people to vote British National Party. Mandelson's constituency is Hartlepool which is in the North East if I recall correctly, the British National Party have never contested the seat. The idea that people would vote BNP purely because they are disaffected by a Labour leadership is flawed given the sheer amount of options available to the voter (RESPECT coalition being a moot point) however given Sultan is an avowed Conservative I can understand that sort of rhetoric being actively promoted by the Conservative Party. Just a couple of follow ups if i may. 1) I congratualate you and your fellow North-Easterners on your moral compass and having the smarts to see through the BNP and their ilk. Unfortunately others, notably in the greater Manchester area, Sandwell and some parts of London do not share your stance. Enough of them voted accordingly hence this debate in the first place. 2) You misunderstood my point about Mandelson. I was not saying he was an incompetent Labour Lord - indeed without his contribution since his return to government i think the wheels would have really come off by now. The point i'm making is that put the effete, dapper Mandelson into a Hartlepool working men's club and he would look every bit out of place as Call Me Dave or Giddy Osbourne. Likewise with Harman- it was just a case of new Labour finding a safe seat for the people they wanted in parliament regardless of whether the locals would identify with them or not. This is all well and good when things are going swimmingly, but when times are hard some people with a weaker moral compass than your good self tend to gravitate towards someone who they see as having something in common with them and able to understand their needs. (No doubt there are legion examples of the Conservatives doing the same but here we have been concerned with those who may gravitate towards BNP). Generally when the Conservative vote collapses they either go to the Liberals, or as in 1997 switch straight to Labour if the arguments are pursuavive enough, though admittedly UKIP muddy the waters these days. BNP have profitted in areas where the traditional Labour vote has collapsed. 3) You mention "Respect." They don't generally have a strong presence in the BNP voting areas. I don't know what the racial mix in the North East but here in the West Midlands we are very mixed. My own son is half Chinese and for a while he had a girlfriend with an Anglo- Arab father and Indian mother. The more bone-headed jealous, lazy whites up here that vote BNP see anyone who, in their parlance, "has a touch of the tar-brush in them" as the enemy. Galloway's stance, viz-a-viz Iraq and Saddam Hussein does not go down well with them. Galloway occupies the same "race-traitor" niche as i do and the same wall is waiting for us to be put up against and shot come the revolution. 4) "Given that Sultan is an avowed Conservative" - One cotton-pickin' moment Dep'ty Dawg you don't know enough about me to make that avowal on my behalf. I am not and never have been a member of the Conservative party and have no inclination to join it. The stance i have taken at any given time in my life has depended on what i've seen going on around me and my own interpretations of it. In my first general election, i voted for the Labour Party because i saw Jim Callaghan as a better leader than Margaret Thatcher and thought that his government were starting to do the right things. Although there was no avoiding the upheavals of the 1980's i always believed that a second Callaghan administration would've given us a softer landing. Unfortunately it was not to be as the unions kicked Jim in the teeth through greed and the left tore Labour apart in much the same way as the Euro-S(c)eptics did for Johnny Major in the 1990's. We have an excellent Labour MP here in Cannock in the shape of Dr Tony Wright and my dislike of the current Labour government would not have prevented me from voting for him again had he chose to seek re-election in 2010. I want to see an end to this government and i am persuaded that the Conservatives could do a better job. There is a world of difference between taking this stance and being "an avowed Conservative." That implies that i would vote for them whether or not in any and all circumstances. This has never been my stance and never will be. I am disappointed when i hear the likes of Kevin McGuire of the Daily Mirror appearing on LBC and instead of giving a reasoned critique of what the George Osbourne saisd at party conference, limit themselves to such nonsense as "Well, he went to Eton, he's going to inherit a title when his dad dies and he changed his name from Gideon. He should be ashamed." So what? I went to Wednesfield High School, didn't inherit a title when my Dad died and my father chose to take his middle name, George, over his first name, Rowland. That alone doesn't make a ha'porth of difference to anything and i find it patronising that the left use this "toff" thing. Do they think that we're too thick to understand a proper political or economic argument? Or are they scared that people might actually agree with the Conservatives if they actually stopped to listen to what they had to say instead of just dismissing them out of hand? I'll happily have a political discourse with you but i was very disappointed that you seek to devalue my viewpoint in the way you did. I've not come on here as an apologist for any party- just to make a comment on the topic here based on my own observations and life experiences, same as anybody else on here. By the way, there is NO "just cause" for voting BNP under ANY circumstances.
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Post by loy PRA on Nov 2, 2009 0:38:19 GMT
A lot of people do turn to other parties, you are correct. A lot of disaffected Labour voters have gone to parties that appear to take them seriously and want to work hard for them, such as the Greens in quite a few places. In some areas there are people who see voting BNP as sticking two fingers up to the main parties though, and they vote BNP above all options because voting Green, UKIP, SWP, RESPECT, etc. doesn't piss off the mainstream politicians half as much as voting BNP does. Very facile. The idea that voting BNP 'pisses off' is based on conjecture and anecdote, there is a very tangible reason why people are voting BNP; Unemployment. The centre-right and far right have been championed during times of high unemployment and as unemployment diminishes so does the influence of the right wing. If I am to cite Aneurin Bevan writing in 'In Place of Fear' he makes a pertinent point that during Hitler's attempts to rattle the Weimar Republic with his Beer Hall Putsch had seen the popularity of National Socialists decrease as the world pulled itself out of depression and Germany moved away from hyperinflation. The original fascist movement in the 1920s was at the height of it's popularity during the Jarra marches, and then was dropped extremely quickly when America brought reform to it's protectionist policies, overproduction and credit crisis. Great similarities are drawn between 30's Germany and Britain today, however I believe this a glib comparison; instead I see more similarities between post 1918 Europe and Europe today. Greater unity needed among Europe to protect against the volatility of the free market, a lost generation of maimed youths coming home from wars abroad and great social questions asked of the future welfare of the country. Interesting times indeed. The point i'm making is that put the effete, dapper Mandelson into a Hartlepool working men's club and he would look every bit out of place as Call Me Dave or Giddy Osbourne. Likewise with Harman- it was just a case of new Labour finding a safe seat for the people they wanted in parliament regardless of whether the locals would identify with them or not. This is all well and good when things are going swimmingly, but when times are hard some people with a weaker moral compass than your good self tend to gravitate towards someone who they see as having something in common with them and able to understand their needs. (No doubt there are legion examples of the Conservatives doing the same but here we have been concerned with those who may gravitate towards BNP). I disagree. Mandelson's history is rooted in grassroots politics right back to his days as a councillor. I don't see how his sartorial choices would make him out of place in a Hartlepool working Men's club or anywhere else for that matter. Given the Liberal Democrats strong rise in support and the Conservative way of thinking turning towards a more liberalist approach, I would suggest that people identify more with a liberal way of thinking which far outshadows those who gravitate to the BNP. 4) "Given that Sultan is an avowed Conservative" - One cotton-pickin' moment Dep'ty Dawg you don't know enough about me to make that avowal on my behalf. I am not and never have been a member of the Conservative party and have no inclination to join it. I wasn't intending to appear earnest and I apologise if my comments misrepresented your way of thinking, however from previous discussions I've had with you I do recall you aligning yourself with the Conservative party which may have coloured my view. If I have misinterpreted those comments then I express my sincerest apologies. I'll happily have a political discourse with you but i was very disappointed that you seek to devalue my viewpoint in the way you did. I've not come on here as an apologist for any party- just to make a comment on the topic here based on my own observations and life experiences, same as anybody else on here. I'm sorry you feel that way andit wasn't my intention to devalue your viewpoint. However, during this discussion I don't think I've discerned a clear reason based on an observation/life experience as to why you feel the BNP have gained considerably more attention and why you feel the Labour government are in some way responsible. I am not an apologist for the Labour government and at the minute although I've clearly indicated that I intend to vote Labour currently, I'd probably currently identify as an undecided voter currently. You've made anecdotal reference to negative disrcimination directed to towards yourfamily. I am very sorry you've experienced such abhorrent attitudes and as a member of a mixed race family I can truly empathise with your situation but I feel the issue of bigotry has been around generations and has failed to have any correlation with the BNP's rise in support.
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Post by robotsmfc on Nov 2, 2009 17:36:18 GMT
Very facile. The idea that voting BNP 'pisses off' is based on conjecture and anecdote, Conjecture and anecdote that is backed-up by the polling evidence. There are a fair proportion of BNP voters who have their little protest and move back or will move back to Labour when they feel they've got the message that they were trying to send out. That isn't to say that all, or even most BNP voters are voting for that reason, but it accounts for quite a few. This may be anecdotal evidence, but it is based largely upon the anecdotes of a man I've come across a few times who has campaigned for several different causes (although mainly the Greens) across England and has spoken and dealt with a huge amount of ordinary voters. He says that many of those who vote BNP tell him that they have done (or will do) it only once or twice in order to wind up and send a message to politicians and those they view as "the establishment". there is a very tangible reason why people are voting BNP; Unemployment. The centre-right and far right have been championed during times of high unemployment and as unemployment diminishes so does the influence of the right wing. Unemployment is too simplistic in the case of the BNP. They are preying on a deep-seated Islamophobia amongst a certain sector of the population since the rise of extreme Islam. There are plenty of people with some very dodgy views about freedom of culture and religion who even in times of high employment would be easy to persuade by the BNP, especially in the current political climate with people more and more detached from mainstream politics. To an extent the BNP are benefitting greatly from unemployment levels, but don't expect the BNP to collapse as soon as the economy is back in full swing again just because people are employed. If I am to cite Aneurin Bevan writing in 'In Place of Fear' he makes a pertinent point that during Hitler's attempts to rattle the Weimar Republic with his Beer Hall Putsch had seen the popularity of National Socialists decrease as the world pulled itself out of depression and Germany moved away from hyperinflation. The original fascist movement in the 1920s was at the height of it's popularity during the Jarra marches, and then was dropped extremely quickly when America brought reform to it's protectionist policies, overproduction and credit crisis. Great similarities are drawn between 30's Germany and Britain today, however I believe this a glib comparison; instead I see more similarities between post 1918 Europe and Europe today. Greater unity needed among Europe to protect against the volatility of the free market, a lost generation of maimed youths coming home from wars abroad and great social questions asked of the future welfare of the country. Interesting times indeed. As a history student I find your comparisons very interesting, although I don't entirely agree with them. I also think that the example of the National Socialists isn't a good one. The Nazis suffered in the 1920s because they were completely disunited as an organisation and still viewed as a Bavarian party. They also had bigger fears and prejudices to call upon; the reaction to an increasingly socially progressive Germany by Eastern rural traditionalists, the failure of Weimar to fulfil its ambitious social policy, the ingrained hate of the Jews and Slavs amongst a lot of German-speakers and a fear of Communism amongst the middle class that dwarfs the fear of Islam in modern Britain. They also had a team of very talented people in the likes of Hitler and Goebbels. As much as I hate to disagree with Aneurin, their popularity, although linked to unemployment, was not something that can solely be attributed to economic performance.
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Post by ambersalamander on Nov 2, 2009 19:27:42 GMT
So, who wants me to sing a song about a little boy flying a kite on a sunny day?
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Post by medibot on Nov 2, 2009 20:09:42 GMT
I could sing you a lovely song about raising flags, most apt, written by a nice man called Horst Wessels...
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Post by Sultan of Cannock- SRFC on Nov 3, 2009 5:54:49 GMT
Sal- sing it and post it on YouTube - it's a guaranteed hit! ;D Loy - thanks for your above post. My perception of your earnestness was also coloured by some of the less temperate discussions we had in another plsce several years ago. We definately got off on the wrong foot when i made a flippant comment. meant as a joke, after a Stafford v Gateshead FA Trophy match which you found disrespectful. At the time, i couldn't understand why. Looking back, i can see that i should have praised your young team for the splendid effort they made on the day and that was a glaring ommission from the post. Back then, i'd just had to go on the shop floor to do hard manual work at the age of 45 in a tetosterone fuelled environment after being made redundant for the 3rd time under the Blair government and i was well up for fisticuffs of any sort. I think we had the occaisional "angry young man v angry old man" altercation I'm more than happy to apologise for misreading you, too. Just because we come at things from a different point of view doesn't mean we have to be enemies. I was into Global Politics before i was into footy and i'm really enjoying the opportunity to get a proper debate with erudite, educated individuals such as you and robot. Kind of balances some of the sillier stuff i do on here!
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Post by ambersalamander on Nov 3, 2009 18:33:41 GMT
What a lovely post, Sultan
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Post by robotsmfc on Nov 3, 2009 19:19:57 GMT
I agree entirely. Not just because you think I'm erudite, but because it's nice to know that people can take debate as it's meant to be rather than seriously and to heart. To be honest I don't think it matters if we see each other as educated and erudite or incoherent and reactionary as long as we respect each others' views and our right to hold them and keep it separate from more personal stuff. Now what was that about a song?
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Post by ambersalamander on Nov 3, 2009 20:05:57 GMT
Hear hear! I'll sing one just for you next time I see you ;D
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Post by Col ISIHAC. on Nov 3, 2009 20:37:45 GMT
I am going to have this thread stuffed and mounted for posterity once it dies down! It is, in part, proof of just why we exist here - there's more to life than football and more for footy fans to debate than their teams & the game. Moreover, this could easily have gotten out of hand. It didn't, so respect oops, sorry; NOT them thanks to those who posted so honestly on the subject.
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Post by loy PRA on Jan 14, 2010 23:11:02 GMT
Peter Hain is getting absolutely mauled tonight on Question Time tonight over the war, remarkably he's making Chris Huhne look electable and he's a Liberal Democrat. Some slack jawed yokel from Finchley has just suggested taking the benefits away from the former leader of Islam4UK because of his views (how does that work?!) and the outrage that he's getting 500 quid a month benefits 'tax free' (unemployment benefits are always taxed.)
The irony being Hain, a well respected Anti Apartheid campaigner and something of a personal Hero of mine would've been a fantastic addition to the Panel vs Nick Griffin and instead Jack Straw was catapulted in.
Awful stuff, awful times. I may try and form a 'Vince Cable for Chancellor of the Exchequer' party which no doubt would have sweeping gains across the country.
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Post by Sultan of Cannock- SRFC on Jan 15, 2010 13:20:20 GMT
Unfortunately Hain has been a bit of a busted flush for some time now. In addition, he was far more effective in the anti-apartheid days because he was pursuing a policy he passionately agreed with and which it wasn't too difficult to see the justice in. Agreed though that with his anti-racist background and principles he would've been a far beter bet than straw for the Griffin QT.
The War, on the other hand, is something that few people wholeheartedly supported from the off and rallied behind Blair out of personal and party loyalty against their better judgement. Thus it's possible that Hain is having to outwardly support a government position he privately disagrees with.
As for your "slack jawed yokel from Finchley" suggesting taking the benefits away from the former leader of Islam4UK because of his views; although i don't agree with him either i can see why he would feel that way. The Islam4UK guy has been taking advantage of the freedom of speech rights afforded to him by our society and system of government to advocate the destruction of those very freedoms and rights for the rest of us.
So we not only have to put up with him berating us but those of us lucky enough to still be in work have actually got to pay him for the previlege. If he hates us and our way of life so much, and if his priciples are so strong then why does he not just tell us where to stick our evil, infidel money and jet off to one of the many Islamic paradises where he could lead the life he wants?
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Post by loy PRA on Jan 15, 2010 18:56:52 GMT
Unfortunately Hain has been a bit of a busted flush for some time now. In addition, he was far more effective in the anti-apartheid days because he was pursuing a policy he passionately agreed with and which it wasn't too difficult to see the justice in. Agreed though that with his anti-racist background and principles he would've been a far beter bet than straw for the Griffin QT. I worked for Hain during the start of my Civil Service Career when he was Secy of State for DWP and his policy was fantastic. Unfortunately it's a bit of a poisoned chalice and practically everyone who's taken over the post has been sacked, resigned, or ended up with some sticky demise. The Hain/Flint duo probably did more for the working public of the country since the Bretton/Marshall conference.. The War, on the other hand, is something that few people wholeheartedly supported from the off and rallied behind Blair out of personal and party loyalty against their better judgement. Thus it's possible that Hain is having to outwardly support a government position he privately disagrees with. . Hain did look uncomfy with the topic of war, however I must disagree with your opinion that the British public did not support the war in Afghanistan. It received masses of public support post 9/11, and has only really went pear shaped over the last few years as it seems it may be geographically and ideologically to turn a country that has been at war for most of the past 1000 years into a Presidential democracy. As for your "slack jawed yokel from Finchley" suggesting taking the benefits away from the former leader of Islam4UK because of his views; although i don't agree with him either i can see why he would feel that way. The Islam4UK guy has been taking advantage of the freedom of speech rights afforded to him by our society and system of government to advocate the destruction of those very freedoms and rights for the rest of us. . I can't see why he feels that way. What makes him able to say that his benefits should be stopped? Can we go as far as stopping the benefit of people with unpalatable political and religious beliefs like Scientologists and fascists? Kenneth Clarke, someone who came (and generally comes across) as completely clueless didn't even know benefits are taxed. So we not only have to put up with him berating us but those of us lucky enough to still be in work have actually got to pay him for the previlege. If he hates us and our way of life so much, and if his priciples are so strong then why does he not just tell us where to stick our evil, infidel money and jet off to one of the many Islamic paradises where he could lead the life he wants?. you don't have to put up with him at all. Just don't listen to him. He receives practically no attention. He's as English as fish and chips as it happens, from the east end. And for all you know his benefits could be the result of his own Class 1 national insurance payments (he was a lawyer, one of two professions that pay the maximum 1A insurance possible.) He has an opinion, a daft one but one that society accepts given the fact we live in a multiparliamentary democracy.
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