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Post by Col ISIHAC. on Jan 25, 2007 23:09:54 GMT
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Post by Giggy of Telford on Jan 25, 2007 23:25:28 GMT
This was posted on Buckschat a few days ago, I also agree with every word of it.
This was a short post for me (until I added this sentence) but I can't think of anyhing to add which isn't already in the video.
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Post by DazaB_WCFC on Jan 26, 2007 3:15:05 GMT
I will cry so much when we leave St Georges Lane.
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Post by ambersalamander on Jan 26, 2007 23:58:47 GMT
Made me proud of what I do  |
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Post by DJhinckley on Jan 27, 2007 10:58:34 GMT
seen this a while back and always wondered why people go over the top about it. It's over sentimentalized, patronising and pretentious to supporters of all clubs at whatever level.
The more succesful a team, the more supporters it gets it's a simple equation. Not every fan can go to see successful teams because of capacity limits so why is it wrong to watch on the TV? Why do we assume that every person who watches on the TV is some kind of glory hunter, yet when non-league pulls out a Prem team in teh FA Cup the first thing we start asking ourselves is "will we be on the telly?" Hypocritical is the word your looking for.
That can be said about about any team in any country at whatever level. Of course your team is YOUR team. Everyone's team is. Who are they to say that the 24500 that turned up to watch Middlebrough last week don't believe they have a sense of belonging to their community. What if the nearest prem side is actually your local club? Does that then make it acceptable? Then really how many fans at a non league club actually do know the players? I don't, most don't either. They might say hello in passing but that's it if your going to honest with yourself.
Again 24500 at Middlesbrough, what makes them not real supporters, or is it just how non league fans are desperate to make up for the fact we watch crap footy every week, so need something else to make us feel better?
I'd say it matter lots to all supporters whether it's Prem or Midland Alliance if their team win or lose, it's patronising to suggest any different. Leave them to their replica shirts? So the assumtion is now that if you wear club colours then you're not a real fan? I always thought that non league fans were always trying to justify wearing their colours to show that they are different. You can't have it both ways.
Non league supporters are no different to any other supporters anywhere. It's only the surroundings and quality of football that makes a difference, no better or worse than Prem fans. I don't see why non league fans are always looking for justification for supporting their club. Should that club ever achieve football League status and rise to the top (Wigan, Wimbledon) do they then become prawn sandwich glory hunters? No just football supporters like everybody else.
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Post by ambersalamander on Jan 27, 2007 11:16:59 GMT
Bah humbug! I'd have known you'd feel that way about it DJ! ;D I think you're right actually in a lot of the stuff you said there, but the fact remains that many non-league fans do feel that way and it makes us feel PROUD. You shouldn't take that away from us. There are fewer of us at Sutton than there are at Chelsea, and there is a sense of pride in being one of those few, because I constitute a larger proportion of the Sutton fanbase than I would of Chelsea's were I to join it, so I feel that I can make more of a difference just by being there. Makes me feel more a part of what's happening at SUFC. Personally, there are aspects of League football, particularly Premiership, that I find distasteful and I would not like to partake of it. That is my personal preference. It's just nice to see a little slide show that tells me to be proud of what I DO do. You may think it's sentimental rubbish, and maybe it is, but you don't see that sort of thing every day. For what it's worth, I thought it was a nice piece of emotive creativity |
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Post by Giggy of Telford on Jan 28, 2007 2:11:06 GMT
Obviously there are real fans for premiership teams but proprtion-wise it's not as many. At non-league level most teams get attendances in either the hundreds or the thousands, this also constitutes prettymuch all of their fanbase. Teams such as Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea have millions of so-called fans, obviously some are real fans and do get to the matches and actively support the club but even if 50,000 go that's still a minority compared to the amount which say they support one of these teams but have not actually gone to watch that team play, I have a friend who says he supports Man Utd but when it comes down to it I know more about the club than he does and have been to Old Trafford more times than he has (a stadium tour when I was 6.) He occasionally watches a match on tv but last year didn't actually know what round 'his' team had reached in the FA Cup. Another person I was once friends with had a key-ring which read Man United #1 fan. A few months later he said he no longer supported them because they had gone shite (in other words they were in 3rd place!) To be a real supporter you do have to take an active interest in your club. For example we all watch our teams almost every week, pay our money to support our club. As a general rule the club actually cares about our opinions (in my example because I part-own the club and use my vote to select the trust board while being able to take part in meetings to run the club.) Most 'fans' of premiershipclubs say they support a team, watch them when they're on tv and the time suits them, bask in the glory when things go well and seperate themselves from it when they don't. As a relatively new fan (started following through Shropshire Star report in 2003, went to first match when trouble started in 2004) I didn't see the stadium grow over the years and for most of it wasn't 100% sure exactly where it was. I do remember the excitement however of watching the learning centre behind the East Terrace grow last season. The power of real fans is immense, when my club was on the brink I remember the work done by everyone to make sure football stayed in Telford and have since seen similar measures at both Spennymoor & Runcorn to name just two. Your clubs and their fans would all do the same but if there was a problem at Chelsea for example and they had to drop out of the premiership over 90% of their fanbase would jump ship to Man U because they were winning anyway. Obviously the real fans would stay and help the club in any way possible (these are painted in a bad light by the glory hunters). A lot of these fans however are mistreated by these clubs anyway, hence the break-off Man U team who wanted to get back to real football hence forming FC United. Man U weren't that bothered as this was just to them a small fraction of the Millions of £s they have to spend on ridiculous wages. if your team does well you do not become a glory hunter, you become a glory hunter when you support a team who does well. When new people come to a non-league team because they are doing well/have had a cup run then these are potential fans. It is our job as supporters to ensure they keep coming back. My interest in Telford United was largely because of a Cup Run in which we beat Crewe. However when things went bad I still stood by and became a proper fan, if they have fun on the glory day but they keep coming back then they are now a fan, they should be welcomed with open arms rather than looked down on as glory hunters because it's a prime chance to get them involved. One last point, it's a bit unfair to use Middlesbrough as a typical premiership team with glory hunters. Glory hunters usually turn up when there is glory to hunt, Middlesbrough don't normally manage much of that.  |
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Post by ambersalamander on Jan 28, 2007 12:47:21 GMT
Don't forget that a lot of people who support big teams do so because they're not THAT interested in football, just want to support someone. Take them away from the big clubs and you are left with a higher proportion of "proper" fans.
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Post by DJhinckley on Jan 28, 2007 22:18:16 GMT
...Teams such as Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea have millions of so-called fans, obviously some are real fans and do get to the matches and actively support the club but even if 50,000 go that's still a minority compared to the amount which say they support one of these teams but have not actually gone to watch that team play... ...To be a real supporter you do have to take an active interest in your club. For example we all watch our teams almost every week, pay our money to support our club. As a general rule the club actually cares about our opinions (in my example because I part-own the club and use my vote to select the trust board while being able to take part in meetings to run the club.) Most 'fans' of premiershipclubs say they support a team, watch them when they're on tv and the time suits them, bask in the glory when things go well and seperate themselves from it when they don't... just exactly who are you, or infact anyone, in the world of football to dictate to anyone else what is a 'real' fan? What piece of legislation have you come up with a criteria for judging a 'real fan'? It may surprise you that there is no legislation on the subject other than opinion and conjecture. You're own criteria seems to fit perfectly to yourself and that is where the problem begins. Only in non league do you get such an attitude to other fans as the further up the Leagues you go, the less relevant it becomes. As I said previous, the non league fans seems desperate to justify their decision to follow non league and so over romanticise the theory of a 'real fan' nicely fitting themselves into the category. Why can't we just accept we are the same as any other footy fan around the globe? It doesn't make us any better just because we watch worse quality footy. |
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Post by Giggy of Telford on Jan 28, 2007 23:18:23 GMT
If it helps I will define what I believe a fan to be, obviously your opinion may well differ but as with all things it is all about opinions.
A fan is used to describe the same people as supporters. Supporter is a noun which describes a person who supports someone or something, Ergo to be a supporter you must be partaking in the act of supporting a team, as to be a fan is the same as to be a supporter it must be true that a fan is someone who supports the club.
To but it mathematically:
f = s (f being fan, s being supporter)
s = c (c being person who supports the club)
So f = c meaning a fan is someone who supports the club.
To support something you doing so must be advantageous to the receptive party somehow. If you support a charity you donate money to it, people who simply say 'I wish the RSPCA well' aren't actually supporting, if you don't actively help in some way you aren't supporting.
I will now give a few examples of fans:
Fan #1 - I support 'Team A', I am a member of the supporters' trust, work to keep the club running while also attending matches.
Fan #2 - I support 'Team B', I help out however I can from turnstile work, selling raffle tickets, giving free maintainence to the stadium, helping out in the club shop, whatever needs doing.
Fan #3 - I support 'Team C', I am a season-ticket holder and get to almost all games home and away.
Fan #4 - I support 'Team D', I get to matches whenever possible but I can either not afford the ticket prices or do not have the time to regularly attend. Whenever possible I will do my bit though.
Fan #5 - OMGWTFBBQ TEAM E RULE, I SUPPORT THEM BECAUSE THEY WILL WIN THE LEAGUE(people do say this, sad but true) I'LL WATCH THE MATCH AGAINST TEAM O ON TV IN A FORTNIGHT IF IF I HAVE TIME. I CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO GO TO THE MATCH THOUGH, WHAT'S THE POINT? FOR ALL I KNOW WE COULD LOSE.
Fans 1,2,3 & 4 are doing their bit to help their club, they are supporting their club, they are supporters, they are fans. They genuinely care about their club.
Fan 5 has never helped his club, he has not supported so he can't be a supporter. He'll watch a match if it suits him but no money or support will ever actually reach the club. Obviously he may not talk so stupidly but still portrays the same message.
I've avoided using club names to avoid stereotypes, for all we know Teams A,B,C,D could be Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal & Liverpool respectively while Team E could infact be Wellington Amatuers in the Shropshire County League but this is a rare occurence. I have not at any point said apremiership fan is not a fan, I have merely said a hanger-on is not a fan.
The examples plus the explaination are there to try and explain what logically is a real fan in my eyes, other people who don't do any of the above carry on following your club by all means but someone who watches them on tv from time to time isn't supporting the club in any way so is hardly a supporter.
My main issue isn't with people who do this however, it's the arrogance that often goes with it, a Premiership fan will often look down at non-league teams, lower league teams, even Championship teams. The only reason people see a difference is because the more arrogant premiership fans will patronise or insult any team smaller than themselves but sometimes even denounce their team when a bigger one comes along. You get this at all levels but more regularly at higher levels and personally annoys me a lot.
Especially in one programme my sister used to watch which was a kids documentary, in one episode they covered footbll and it included 2 lines that particularly irritated me "instead offollowing you local team who will just lose all the time you can watch one of the real teams on tv" followed up by "and if your team loses, you can always find a new one" radio: "and so the final score was Shrewsbury 12-0 Arsenal" leading to the presenter pulling down their Arsenal posters and putting up a Chelsea poster.
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Post by ifuckinrule on Jan 28, 2007 23:38:35 GMT
am i a fan? i've been to one game this season and could only pick out about 3 players of the current team. i always wear my hednesford hat when the weathers cold though.....
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Post by Giggy of Telford on Jan 28, 2007 23:50:35 GMT
Short answer: Yes Long answer: Also Yes, you do what you can to support your club.
Answer to a completely different question that no one asked but may have thought "Do you even know what you're on about Giggy?": I probably don't know what I'm on about really, it's basically my opinion coupled with what seems logical to me at this time of night but will inevitably make no sense to me in the morning.  |
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Post by malxscfc on Jan 29, 2007 10:22:50 GMT
Obviously there are real fans for premiership teams but proprtion-wise it's not as many. At non-league level most teams get attendances in either the hundreds or the thousands, this also constitutes prettymuch all of their fanbase. Teams such as Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea have millions of so-called fans, obviously some are real fans and do get to the matches and actively support the club but even if 50,000 go that's still a minority compared to the amount which say they support one of these teams but have not actually gone to watch that team play, I have a friend who says he supports Man Utd but when it comes down to it I know more about the club than he does and have been to Old Trafford more times than he has (a stadium tour when I was 6.) He occasionally watches a match on tv but last year didn't actually know what round 'his' team had reached in the FA Cup. Another person I was once friends with had a key-ring which read Man United #1 fan. A few months later he said he no longer supported them because they had gone shite (in other words they were in 3rd place!) To be a real supporter you do have to take an active interest in your club. For example we all watch our teams almost every week, pay our money to support our club. As a general rule the club actually cares about our opinions (in my example because I part-own the club and use my vote to select the trust board while being able to take part in meetings to run the club.) Most 'fans' of premiershipclubs say they support a team, watch them when they're on tv and the time suits them, bask in the glory when things go well and seperate themselves from it when they don't. As a relatively new fan (started following through Shropshire Star report in 2003, went to first match when trouble started in 2004) I didn't see the stadium grow over the years and for most of it wasn't 100% sure exactly where it was. I do remember the excitement however of watching the learning centre behind the East Terrace grow last season. The power of real fans is immense, when my club was on the brink I remember the work done by everyone to make sure football stayed in Telford and have since seen similar measures at both Spennymoor & Runcorn to name just two. Your clubs and their fans would all do the same but if there was a problem at Chelsea for example and they had to drop out of the premiership over 90% of their fanbase would jump ship to Man U because they were winning anyway. Obviously the real fans would stay and help the club in any way possible (these are painted in a bad light by the glory hunters). A lot of these fans however are mistreated by these clubs anyway, hence the break-off Man U team who wanted to get back to real football hence forming FC United. Man U weren't that bothered as this was just to them a small fraction of the Millions of £s they have to spend on ridiculous wages. if your team does well you do not become a glory hunter, you become a glory hunter when you support a team who does well. When new people come to a non-league team because they are doing well/have had a cup run then these are potential fans. It is our job as supporters to ensure they keep coming back. My interest in Telford United was largely because of a Cup Run in which we beat Crewe. However when things went bad I still stood by and became a proper fan, if they have fun on the glory day but they keep coming back then they are now a fan, they should be welcomed with open arms rather than looked down on as glory hunters because it's a prime chance to get them involved. One last point, it's a bit unfair to use Middlesbrough as a typical premiership team with glory hunters. Glory hunters usually turn up when there is glory to hunt, Middlesbrough don't normally manage much of that. Good God, man!! Shame there's no GSCE to be taken in "Supporting Non-League Football"!! To knock up an essay like you did there is probably an A*-grade piece of work!  Shame there aren't more teenagers able to discourse, passionately, fluently and intelligently on ANY subject like you just did there!  Makes a case, surely, for a GCSE in 'Independent Studies', at least? I guess lots of kids could actually excel, study and gain some academic confidence by writing about a subject which really enthused them, rather than, say, a chemical reaction, or Chick-Lit., or about people long-dead on some far-flung battlefield.... |
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Post by J Esaj PRA on Jan 29, 2007 16:42:49 GMT
I ain't reading all that LAS! However... To but it mathematically: f = s (f being fan, s being supporter) s = c (c being person who supports the club) So f = c meaning a fan is someone who supports the club. That is fundamentally incorrect. This is how it should probably read: f <= s s == c f <= c Fans show interest; supporters show commitment (usually financial). Supporters are usually fans, but fans are not necessarily supporters. |
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Post by ambersalamander on Jan 29, 2007 18:04:10 GMT
PEDANTRY ASIDE... oh hang on, this is ME talking... um, by the way DJ, "criteria" is plural ;D
I've never felt that diehard non-league fans are more "proper" supporters than loyal Premiership fans.
Yes, we DO do more on an individual basis to help our clubs, but THAT IS BECAUSE THERE IS MORE FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL TO DO. A club with a fanbase of 50000 does not need 50000 people to help with stewarding, run the club shop etc., and besides it has enough money to pay contractors to do such things. We only do more because our club needs us to. If it didn't, would we be less worthy as supporters?
Yes there are some Premiership fans who don't really care that much about "their" team and will watch games on TV, but think about it... if YOUR non-league team were on local TV all the time, you might get something similar happening with your regular fanbase. People who "support" their team in that way do so because they have the opportunity to do so, and would probably exist at all levels if they had the chance to.
I still think that the proportion of fans who care more about their club is higher at our levels (that's proportion remember, not number) but I think Giggy's forgetting the non-league equivalent of the "I'll watch [Tottenham] on TV if I remember" fan- those who think "Oh, I'm bored- there's a footy ground down the road isn't there? Fancy a wander down?" These people aren't supporters, they're there for a good time only, but they have as much right to be there as I do.
Just because someone isn't as interested in football as us and therefore doesn't make as much effort, doesn't make us superior.
But I still like the slide show, because we SHOULD be proud of what we do for our clubs. Not to deride supporters of more successful clubs or to call them less worthy supporters, but to be proud of ourselves. It's different. There's no comparison. Different type of support is required, I mean.
Following a team because you admire its success is perfectly valid as a pastime, but I wouldn't call it support unless you do actually support it by going to games where you can, or giving money to the club, or EVEN just advocating it well!
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